I have some questions for you experienced autism parents about anger issues in my 3 year old. His agression level has increased and become violent. He is a very high functioning autistic child and is soooooo angry. He has been throwing chairs, bitting himself, talking very ugly, hitting, yelling and screaming and other angry behaviors. While I do know that some of these behaviors are consistent with autism, I am concerned at thier increase and intensitiy. I was told that I should have him screened for ODD by the autism school that he is currently attending. He is very quick to get angry and will argue most of what you say or tell him. Anyone is the same boat?????



Has the school conducted a
Has the school conducted a functional behavior assessment? If the behaviors are happening at home too, you can conduct one yourself. All you need to do is take a close look at the situation surrounding the behaviors. Try to find out when he is most likely to do it and where and with what people. This may take a while. Sometimes, you find a pattern, which could help you to determine a course of action. Check online or with the school's psychologist or Occupational therapist to see if anyone has a Motivation Assessment. It is a questionairre that helps determine the function of a behavior. After you find the function, I can give you some ideas to try.
You stated that he is a high functioning child with autism, but he is three, so as with any three year old, there is a lot to learn obout this world...maybe try some of the following books to help him navigate this thing called life: Nagivating the Social World, Teach Me Language, Social Skills Book (by Jed Baker) or the Social Skills Picture Book (Jed Baker).
And don't forget visual supports to remind him--visuals even for high funtioning children with autism. Sometimes a sticky note with a written message (for readers) can work WONDERS!!!! Especially in the midst of a meltdown, when words are no longer a useful tool.
AutismClassroom.com
Question. Discuss. Learn.
This post contains a really
This post contains a really important technique that I had all but forgotten about - the idea of not using our normal way to communicate but to try something different. In this case, interrupting an aggressive tantrum by interrupting our child with a note or picture. It is a technique that frequently worked for my son - who was VERY visually oriented. If we REALLY wanted him to pay attention, the best way to communicate that to him was not by raising our voices and shouting, it was by not saying anything and showing him an image or drawing. After he learned to read, a written note served the same purpose.
It took
It took
Your son is sure a cute
Your son is sure a cute little guy. God knew what he was doin' when he made these kids so darn cute lol... and FUNNY.
My son can be absolutely hilarious at times. In any case I'm glad you found our little group. Sometimes I wish we all
lived in the same neighborhood.
His cuteness is God's sense
His cuteness is God's sense of humor. He knows its what saves him.
Thanks glad to be a part this group :)
I know, I wish we all lived
I know, I wish we all lived closer geographically. But you know we'd probably still never see each other much since we're all so homebound and scheduled down to the minute sometimes.
Oh Im home so much I could
Oh Im home so much I could watch Michael so Holly could go on a date every so often and find a man
worthy of a ready made family AND I figure Marcel and Wyatt can wrestle since they're both big lol.
When Marcel was born he looked like he'd been working out inside of me. His arms looked like he had
been pumping iron. He was 8.5 pounds, 20 inches long, full term HEALTHY, beautiful child & before he was
two years old he was over three feet tall. WELL come to find out the men on my birth moms side tend to
be tall, averaging six foot four. So those two would wear each other out lol. And Perz's son can be who
everybody looks up to =)
I think Marcel is going to
I think Marcel is going to be taller than my son, so he'd be the one we'd all look up to eventually. Maybe Holly could find my son another nice girl like herself instead..... hmmm.
"I could watch Michael so
"I could watch Michael so Holly could go on a date every so often and find a man
worthy of a ready made family"
Wait Say What???
In other words husband and
In other words husband and step dad =)
I do not want to marry any
I do not want to marry any time soon.
LOL we were pretending.....,
LOL we were pretending....., like we all lived in the same community, perfect and a lil wacky kinda like The
Stepford Wives lol.
I guess in a pretend world
I guess in a pretend world men do not cheat abuse and lie. I think even in a pretend world I like the single life. No drama, no worries, so much easier. I see all these girls who turn everything upside down for "some" guy and they end up fighting to turn back around when it is all said and done. I just do not have time for that. There is a guy I like, but he is a few hours away. And I get ALOT of mixed signals from him. But beyond casual dating, I do not know where I would want to go.
I dont think I ever
I dont think I ever mentioned this before but my husband & I knew each other 13 days & have been married
28 years. I was 18 & he was 28. People thought we were crazy. We were BROKE and in love. Somehow it
worked out. Over the years we've seen couples marry & divorce, and we're still together. I always tease its
because we cant stay mad at each other long enough to divorce lol. I married a good man. He doesnt cheat.
He loves ME & he's a good father. There are good men out there. Youre wise to be careful Holly.
Hey, feeling your pain, no
Hey, feeling your pain, no good answer. Are you doing any of the special diets?
We didn't have anger issues, but our 7 year old with PDD-NOS has improved a lot since we have done dietary interventions. Two weeks in a row after a great ABA session, we went to Walmart, picked out a movie, walked THROUGH the toy department, waited in line to check out (yesterday, there were 7 people in line with lots of stuff, 10 minute wait), put movie on the conveyor belt (instead of thinking if it left her possession she wasn't going to get it back and freaking out), and waited while I paid. She did says "Lets Goooooooooooooooooooo" about 20 times.
I have no idea if the diet (SCD) does all the things they say, but eating good food seems to make her all around happier (us too). She is loving to eat and eats everything we put in front of her.
No more meltdowns! Solid poops are a fringe benefit.
Fielding J. Hurst
http://autismparents.net
http://autismretort.com
Solid poop is a wonderful
Solid poop is a wonderful production that should never be taken for granted.
Wow, I'm impressed about the walking through the toy department and the really long wait AND the conveyor belt. Wyatt can help load stuff onto the conveyor belt as long as it isn't an ultra-preferred item.
My "theory" on diets is that
My "theory" on diets is that they are helpful in eliminating some of the sensory issues our children experience. If sort of put myself into a frame of mind where I imagine living with allergic "hives" everyday - how would I behave then. Take away the "hives" - I can imagine my frustration melting away like butter. Just my theory, but I think this is what some of the diets do for some people with ASDs - they make the "hives" go away.
OK, people, I must have
OK, people, I must have called up some bad karma on myself today. First meltdown in forever after bragging. :-) I jinxed it!
Fielding J. Hurst
http://autismretort.com
http://autismparents.net
Maybe someone slipped the
Maybe someone slipped the kid an M&M! Anyway, all kids get tired and cranky sometimes. Even neuro-typicals have bad days.
He doesn't like
He doesn't like sweets!!!!!!! Go figure.
My kid doesn't like sweets
My kid doesn't like sweets either! Except for a few things with cinammon, like graham crackers.
My son is not big on sweet
My son is not big on sweet things either and he never was. I think a few others on this site have mentioned the same thing about their children. Could a lack of interest in sweets be a common thing among ASD children.
My son's worst tantrums
My son's worst tantrums occurred, without a doubt, when he felt "like a victim whose story was just not being heard." Usually, this was because whatever was really bothering him (specific bullies, smells, noises, lights, etc.,) was not being made to go away. He was, thankfully, not very physically agressive, but that does not mean that he never expressed physical agression during some of his tantrums. On occasion I was bit, hit, kicked, etc. while trying to control a tantrum. It has been years and years though since my son has had a tantum. Making them go away involved a multi-pronged approach and that approach had to keep changing depending on the individual cause for each series of tantrums.
Pinning down what was REALLY bothering him at any particular point in time was perhaps the toughest task. Sometimes it was that he was being bullied at school (and getting the school to discipline and elsewise deal with its bullying problems was a BIG challenge). Sometimes it was the smell of fresh cut grass (so we wouldn't try to haul him out the door right after mowing the lawn if we could possibly avoid it). Sometimes it was a noisy crowd (so we bought him a good set of noise canceling headphones to use instead of "ear buds") Sometimes is was a buzzing flourescent light in his classroom (which he reacted to like most peole react to the sound of nails on a chalkboard), so his teachers always made sure that their lights were in good repair. Sometime it was something we could do NOTHING about, so we had to painstakingly teach him to tolerate it and, more importantly, to relax while tolerating it.
The foundation of ABA is ANALYSIS; and there are books and books on the subject that offer a myriad of scientific approaches, fill-in forms and data sheets, and lots of advice on how to analyze complex behaviors (like tantrums) in people who cannot come right out and say "I'm angry because..... The process is tedious, cumbersome, and difficult - and often because it is tedious, cumbersome and difficult, it seems to be ineffective. The process of analyzing our children's behaviors in such painstaking detail usually frustrates us more than "whatever" frustrates our kids; BUT, this still does get us off the hook - we still have to accurately analyze the situation to determine the REAL cause of the behavior BEFORE we can develop a plan of action to help make that behavior (if it is an unwanted behavior) disappear.
For most of us, the process eventually boils down to a combination of "gut feeling" and "trial and error" - and most of us get better and better at it as our kids get older. On their part, most of our kids get better at communicating their issues to us as time goes by.
However, because they are autistic, they often have as much difficulty as we do in determining what the real source of their anger is. For us, it is difficult because we are not experiencing the thing first hand; for them, it is difficult because they are experiencing the world on a sensory level far differently than anyone else around them is experiencing it. This lack of "common-ness" of sensory experience is what ultimately disables our children AND us. To compound the issue further, it is important to remember that no matter how different their sensory experiences are from ours, those experiences are "NORMAL" to them. Because we do not share the same experience, we have difficulty communicating through the differences and we often overlook the enormous impact even small differences in how we perceive things through our senses can have on how we understand (or misunderstand) a lot of situations.
Social situations, because they are so complex, are the ones most frequently to be misunderstood by a person with autism (even as an adult); although simpler situations can be affected as well. For example, a room we think is quiet, might well be UNBEARABLY noisy for a person with autism; and sometimes even now I catch myself dismissing my son's complaints out of hand. He might comment, "Boy this room is noisy," and I'll thoughtlessly mutter back, 'No, it's not." If he subsequently feels himself getting agitated, he also feels less able to "blame" how feels on the noise simply because my feedback already told him that the room wasn't noisey enough to be a problem. The key here, is that it wasn't noisy to be a problem FOR ME, not him.
Determining what is REALLY bothering a person who cannot accurately communicate that essentially tidbit of information to you is, I think, the biggest challenge facing us parents of ASD children, teachers, and anyone who is in contact with your child. The sad reality is that most teachers, friends, store clerks, waitresses, bus drivers, school peers, etc. will never take the time to help us find out either - so. for survival, we (as the parents) have to learn how to listen more acutely than normal parents, we have to be 1000 times more observant than normal parents, and we have to develop almost superhuman intuitions about where exactly it is that our own child is coming from and we have to learn how to relate that information to everyone else in our children's worlds. NOT an easy task - in fact, an impossible one. but we persist in trying because the bottom line is we all love our kids. The same boat? - Baby, we've all been there.
Sigh........Thanks.
Sigh........Thanks.
I hear you about the noise.
I hear you about the noise. My husband is always complaining about how noisy stuff is and my response is, "What noise?" The irony is that he claims he's losing some of his hearing and he's always asking me "What? What?" I DETEST repeating myself. I mean, unless I'm babbling away to someone, then I can repeat myself dozens of times. I'm very annoying. I guess my husband and I deserve each other. :)
On time-out, our ABA doc.
On time-out, our ABA doc. says timeout should be a "timeout from positive reinforcement", not a punishment. Also, they often learn to act out so they can stop doing whatever it is that they don't want to do, etc. IE - They get out of it, which is what they wanted in the first place. If that's the case, time-out has the opposite effect and parents is being played without even knowing. My daughter is a master manipulator. If we are doing something she doesn't want to do, the default was to do something to get a timeout. When that happened, she won that battle.
Fielding J. Hurst
http://autismparents.net
http://autismretort.com
They have told me the same
They have told me the same about Noah. That his need for control and his ability to manipulate is very powerful. That is why sometimes I do not know what to do. I have had all the training but this is something new that Noah is doing.
How about a punching bag?
How about a punching bag? Let him take his frustration out on something he cant hurt.
The art of being
The art of being manipulative was something I don't think my son ever really developed. His approach to getting what he wanted was "direct," not "devious." Once he could talk, my son always asked for what he wanted right out and he indicated that he didn't want to do something the same way. Sometimes if his request was denied, he would get upset about it, but he never "expected" that this would cause me to "give in." He simple could not anticipate the effect his tantrum would have on me enough to use them as a tool for manipulation (see Uta Frith's theory of mind in autism). To me, his tantrums were an honest expression of just what he felt - i.e. frustrated and angry.
Perhaps though my understanding of the nature of the word "manipulation" is different than everyone else. I tend to think of it as trying to get something out of another person that a person is not entitled to by using a form of deception, so that the other person doesn't realize exactly what is going on and gets "suckered" into giving in. To manipulate someone else requires an understanding and anticipation of the other person's frame of mind that, at least according to Frith's theory, can be almost completely absent in people with autism.
I get concerned when parents get "locked on" to the idea that they are in a neverending power struggle with their autistic children, since autism really is a disability, not a form of willful disobedience. ODD is a different thing that may manifest itself alongside autism, but it is not an integral part of autism itself. To say that people with autism are "normally" violent would be doing many of them a serious injustice.
If we, as parents, are inclined to "default" to manipulations as the cause of every tantrum, we can easily miss helping our kids to solve sensory issues that, at least in the case of my son, were more frequently the root cause. My son wasn't born instinctively knowing that he had this and that sensory experience that was different from other people, he had to figure it all out the hard way - and tantrums were an expression of how hard it was for him to figure himself out. My son and I learned together over time to appreciate our differing perspectives (which are VERY different most of the time).
I don't like the word
I don't like the word manipulation at all either. I think this will be a long and difficult journey figuring out what Noah's stressors are. I will do what I have to help my son thru this. My son is very concerned with the reaction of others and this is what the school tells me is what Noah uses to manipulate a situation. If Noah sees that I am not very happy after he has done something he knows he was not supposed to do he will want to hug me until I smile. He will hug me then pull back a little to look at my face to see if I am smiling yet and then hug me some more until I do. He is very smart!!!!!
Okay its official..........
Okay its official.......... Im confused lol.
It's OK Cindy. I don't
It's OK Cindy. I don't think Fielding was actually intending to thread onto my post, but one further down that was talking about timeouts. I'm confused, too - lol.
I agree, if the motivation
I agree, if the motivation for the particular tantrum is to get out of something, then a time out is not the best choice of a response. Not ALL tantrums are to get out of something though, so there are times when timeouts work well. Often, if the cause is sensory, the timeout has the accidental effect of removing the child away from a particular sensory irritant. If this is the case, a pattern may emerge where the tantrum occurs in the main classroom, dissipates quickly in the timeout room, and then re-emerges shortly after the child is put back in the main classroom. This is usually relatively easy to pick out, but if the sensory irritants are longer lasting, the same pattern may actually appear to be somewhat "bipolar" in manifestation.
A friend of mine used to
A friend of mine used to help out in a special needs classroom. She said there was a wooden "cage" in the
room for kids that acted up. She'd never actually seen it being used but even still uh put my kid in a cage I will HURT you!
What are they MONKEYS?????
What are they MONKEYS????? Seriously that is awful.
The timeout room at my son's
The timeout room at my son's school was not a cage - so, no need to HURT me, OK? It was actually smalliish classroom (it could seat about six students). It was where my son would go with his aide to chill out. Depending on what had caused the "tantrum" that necessitated his removal from the main classroom, his aide would continue with whatever the lesson was while he was in the timeout room.
His sensitivity to buzzing fluorescent lights became apparent to us because of this timeout room. We eventually noticed that he would settle down really quickly in the timeout room, but would start to tantrum right away whenever they went back to the class. It was tempting to assume that he didn't like his teacher or his studies and label his behavior as "manipulative" particularly when it got so bad that he would actually tantrum even as they were trying to take him back to the classroom. However, when we "hit" on the real cause of his tantrums (a malfunctioning "buzzing" light in the classroom), we had no further difficulties with him in the main classroom. He did like both his teacher and his studies and did well.
As he's grown up, he has learned that (a) he is sensitive to "buzzing" noises in general and (b) that he can force himself to "ignore" the buzzing for a period of time long enough to get through a class if he has to (i.e. about an hour). However, his ability to tolerate the noise is not infinite and is probably still shorter than a lot of other people his age. I personally don't even hear buzzing flourescent lights so could sit in a room with one for hours, no doubt. I'm sure my own "insensitivity" to the sound is part of the reason it took so long for us to figure the real problem out.
bzzzzz bzzzzz... do you
bzzzzz bzzzzz... do you remember I had bee wallpaper in Wyatt's room? And it was made in Canada. Wyatt doesn't seem to be sensitive to buzzing noise but I would have felt even worse for putting up overstimulating busy bee wallpaper if Wyatt was sensitive to buzzing.
When I was in school I
When I was in school I remember hearing the clock on the wall tick and then being thrown off by any little noise.
It's also common for kids
It's also common for kids with autism to also be bi-polar. My son is less verbal than yours but he has shown many of the same behaviors that you described. We're just trying to get him on some calming medications and also we try hard to avoid triggering his outbursts. Usually they are the worst at night when he fights going to sleep, so we try to make sure he doesn't nap and we try to wear him out with activity. Of course, that also wears us out :(
My son is 4, and also high
My son is 4, and also high functioning, except in communication. He was not officially diagnosed with ODD because it is something that is more like an underlying symptom of Autism. He has been put on Risperdal. Michael went through anger phases but not so violent. His problem was regulating those defiant emotions. I have seen such a change in him since the meds. I am not one who likes giving my baby meds... In fact I gave up on one because he just would not take it. But the Risperdal is a life saver for me, and it keeps me sane.
Where are you from, maybe there is a in home program to help with impulse and behavior control. Th neigbor girl was getting therapy like that when her mother remembered to make the appointments.
I'm like you and very
I'm like you and very anti-meds if at all possible. I live in Joplin, MO.
Sounds pretty common to me.
Sounds pretty common to me. I had my husband make a hole in our bedroom door (about the size of a
small window, big enough to put your head through but too high for my son to reach). I use the room for time out. My son
scratches, bites & throws things. Time out is pretty cushy lol. He's got the "big bed" and tv. He just cant hurt mommy
or the dog. I only keep him in there long enough to cool down (five to ten minutes normally) and I watch him real
close. Maybe there's something going on at the school, you never know, maybe he's trying to tell you something &
cant so he has a melt down.
His ability to communicate
His ability to communicate with me is not something that normally stands in Noah's way. He will tell me if there are too many people or too many things in a room. I'm concerned because his level of anger is so high and it's like a switch. One minute he will be the most lovable little boy and then if you ask him to do something or tell him to do something and it doesn't fit into what he wants to do he will become a little hulk. I've never seen a 3 year old pick up a little rocking chair and throw it across the room. He did this 3 times in the same night. This behavior has gradually increased. I just wonder what the heck is causing it. When I ask him what is wrong he will tell me something that doesn't make any sense. "I threw the chair because I was mad about my snack". Or if they cars aren't going fast enough on the road while I'm driving he will yell at them and get mad. ???????? Is that pretty normal for an autistic child?
My son is 4 1/2 and weighs
My son is 4 1/2 and weighs 80 lbs. He's ruined several pieces of furniture by tossing it around (in anger and just for the heck of it). He doesn't get mad about cars on the road but he gets really miffed if he sees cars in the drive-thru, even if we're not in the drive-thru and he's happily eating at a booth.
It's just all so
It's just all so confusing!!!!!!!
I think the level of
I think the level of frustration can be enormously high on the "higher-functioning" end of the spectrum; but that is really an unfair generalization. Autism is a spectrum, so I'm not sure it has a "normal" - and many people with ASD's really hate that particular "n" word altogether.
Yes absolutely. I just
Yes absolutely. I just think he is really young to be this angry. I mean he has no problem communicating with his words so why the anger?
Being able to communicate
Being able to communicate what is really bothering any of us effectively depends on lots more than the mere use of words. Just because your son has communicated effectively with you in the past, doesn't mean that he is able to communicate to you about this problem now. As I mentioned before, he may not even know himself what his problem really is - and that can be frustrating him even more. Being able to communicate effectively across a significant difference in sensory perception is a very difficult thing to achieve at the best of times - and people with autism can have vastly different perceptions on even the most basic sensory levels For most of us, communication between us and our ASD children is a lifelong process that is fraught with frequent misunderstandings and communications breakdowns.
Philosophically, my understanding of every word anyone says to me is based on my past experiences with those words, and those experiences are rooted in how my senses have perceived my environment since birth. We understand each other well enough to believe we really understood each other ONLY because our sensory experiences are probably somewhat similar. However, since we often don't "share" the sensory experiences of our ASD children, is it any wonder that we frequently misunderstand what they are trying to communicate to us? When anyone feels that a communication has failed, anyone can feel at a loss, confused, frustrated, and even angry.
Your question seems to continue to be whether or not your son's anger reaction is excessive or "normal" for kids with autism? My answer continues to be - Well, that depends on what HIS issue really is from HIS perspective and through HIS senses, not ours. He may indeed have ODD, but as I understand the diagnostic criteria, it takes a lot more than one fit (even one that's lasted two weeks) to make that diagnosis.
See the ODD criteria here - http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-ch05.html
So he talks? Maybe he has
So he talks? Maybe he has aspergers with ODD?
What really threw me was
What really threw me was that I had not seen this type of behavior in such a long time. The autism school tells me that his aggressions started really escalating in the last 2 weeks. I have noticed at home the way he gets so irritated at me for little things. He gives me looks that could kill satan himself and back talks like he is 30 years old. It all started last wed. when we went to church. It was Noah's first night at a church program we have here called Awanas. The classroom he was going to be in was the same one he goes to for Sunday school so he was familiar with the room. They had rearranged some of the tables in the room and when Noah walked in he lost it. Change sometimes affects my son but for the most part he does pretty good. He started yelling at the top of his lungs that the room was different. It spiraled down from there. It was then time for circle time and Noah started talking really sassy and started telling everyone that he was NOT going to sit in the circle. He told me that there were too many people in the circle and that he wanted to go home. There was a table leader that took him aside and tried to calm him down and Noah would have no part of it he started climbing under the table and under chairs knocking things over etc. He finally came to the circle and sat down after shoving other children out of the way. After story time it was table time where children sat at tables in groups of three and colored and learned a bible verse. Noah sat at my table and I noticed that he would pick up all of the colors in the box and squeeze them in his hand and get this intense angry look on his face and drop the crayons back down into the box. He also would not let the other children have any crayons. I tried talking with Noah and tried to make him stop doing those things but Noah acted like he didn't even hear me. It was then time to go to puppet time in a different room and when Noah left the room I could hear him yelling all the way down the hall. Five minutes later a table leader brought him back into the room where I was and told me that Noah had hit another child. When I confronted Noah about this he picked up a chair and threw it. I told him to pick up the chair and put it back where he got it and he walked over to it, picked it up, and threw it again. I told him once again to pick up the chair and put it back. He looked at me and yelled "NO!". I said "Do you want to pick up the chair by yourself or do you want me to help you pick it up?" He once again picked it up and threw it. I decided to take him home at that point and he began to bite himself, again this behavior I hadn't seen since he was 2. He screamed and yelled all the way home and once he got home he stopped and calmed down. Here is what I'm confuse about........Noah has been socialized and doing really well. He has been transitioning into a new preschool and almost doesn't even need the aid(until now). He has begun hitting his teacher at his new preschool and throwing chairs there also. I just can't figure out what the trigger is since he is used to being around a number of children and until now hasn't had a problem?????